"Caging the animal" is how this woman thinks of having her brother who hasn't committed a crime locked up until he "changes." This is simply appalling. People with traumatic brain injuries have unique issues among them, the rage their family members feel towards them because of the personality change that can be brought about by a tbi.

It's immoral to imprison someone for something they haven't yet done. It's cruel and ineffective to lock a tbi patient on a psych ward (or a psych patient for that matter). There are plenty of closed head injury rehab centers out there. I hope this woman's brother makes it to one.

I'm so tired of the knee jerk rush-to-judgement comments that are posted on many mental health blogs. Thank you, Liz, for publishing this letter. In a perfect world, there would be other choices and options. Unless I had more details, I would never presume that this family hasn't already tried to find a better treatment facility for their son/brother. Whether it's about access, the financial ability to pay for different treatment options or other variables, every situation is uniquely different. Rather than being attacking and judgmental, we should offer support, information, suggestions and ask for more facts specific to a story such as this.Our government, the medical establishment and society at large do not want to deal with the reality of such patients. Look at the soldiers with TBI returning from Iraq and how woefully inadequate their treatment often is. Most families are forced to face the stress, the fear, the emotional trauma on their own --- nobody holds their hand, provides them with help and support, etc. Perhaps Sally should find the identity of this writer and offer her services.

Helen, Anyone, anyone that is who refers to their brother as an animal that needs to be caged is not deserving of services. By the way, caging an animal makes it more, not less, dangerous, and classifying humans as animals, that is subhumans with less rights than other humans is vile. This woman's brother should be released. If his mother doesn't want him in her home, she can tell him to leave, if he won't she can have him removed by the police.

Her words may sound harsh and seemingly offensive but they reflect her reality. I still don't have enough information to judge her or her family. And is it our place to judge anyway?! I have huge sorrow for her brother and her family. They have been dealing with a tragic accident and the horrendous nightmare of TBI for over 25 years. I have read similar stories. Unless you know all the facts and have had to walk in those shoes, please be cautious in your comments. It comes across as arrogant as well. I sincerely hope that the writer of this letter will share more and reply to your comments.

This reminds me a little of the story of Phineas Gage, a 19th century New England railroad worker who had a complete change of personality after a workplace accident caused an iron rod to pass through his skull. The rod damaged the frontal lobes of his brain, and changed him from a rational and even-tempered person into someone who couldn't control himself. In describing the change in him, his friends said he was "no longer Gage".

Anyway, apparently this was before the time when the country had progressed(?) to the point of being able to easily lock up people who behave in this kind of way. I guess the people who knew him recognized that it was the physical injury that caused this change, and didn't hold him so personally responsible as to think of him as an animal that needed to be caged. Gage did actually work again after his accident - although probably never in such a responsible kind of job as he had at the time (he had been a railroad construction foreman). He moved to the country of Chile and drove a stagecoach there for a while.

Eventually he died young - mainly as a result of the brain injury, I believe. But I think it's interesting that the way he was treated in the 19th century was probably more humane than the way a person with his condition would likely be treated today.

I sit here reading Sally’s commentary also knowing Liz’s caring for animals and so I am reminded of some of the teachings of Caesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer.

While Sally may miss the fact that we are all animals and since she hopefully does not live under the same circumstances or experiences or having to deal with the daily life threatening situation(s) that this family member has expressed what would be more appropriate, in my opinion, in this situation is a “calm and submissive state” as often expressed by Mr. Millan.

As Helen previously stated, “knee jerk rush-to-judgement” appears apparent to me too.

Mr. Millan also often expresses the need to “establish rules, boundaries and limitations” and in my opinion the same is also applicable to humans.

The woman in the piece also expressed the fact that “My brother is 42 and has had a long history of psychiatric problems and incarcerations.” In my opinion when threats or the actual enactment of bodily harm are threatened and/or perpetrated that goes beyond any acceptable rules, boundaries and limitations.

Maybe Sally ought to reconsider and investigate women’s abuse groups and review their rules, boundaries and limitations.

And I do further agree with Helen that this family needs support and not condemnation for their efforts to keep their family member not only safe but trying all these years to achieve wellness. In this instance, based upon my reading, I do not feel we need a dead person to justify Sally’s beliefs or position.

I am also at this time reminded of friends who facilitated support groups for family members of Bipolar children. The stories shared with me were truly harrowing of parents having to sleep behind barred and secured doors fearful of their lives from their knife, club or fire wielding life threatening children. The difficulties and challenges faced by parents of out of control children, from my understanding, is even more difficult as told to me as the parents most often remain responsible for a minor child as opposed to an adult.

In my personal experiences while challenged with my spouse’s illness nothing of a near similar nature has been experienced by me so my heartfelt feelings go out to this family.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

I am a big believer in civil liberties. But, I do think it's reasonable to lock up a person who is threatening to murder someone. If someone threatened to murder me, I would certainly be in contact with the police. I don't care what the diagnosis is, if a person is threatening to kill someone then I'm not going to be upset about them being locked up. I'm sure the laws differ by state, but at the very least it seems threatening a person with bodily harm would be considered harassment.

reviewing your Comment

It is certainly reasonable to lock up someone who is threatening to murder someone else. Threatening to murder someone is a crime. And it is reasonable to be concerned about a relative that has a traumatic brain injury.

What is not reasonable is to think of that person as an animal that needs to be caged, a fate that Ceasar Milan does not recommend for dogs. While all humans are indeed animals, all animals are not human. Humans are supposed to have human rights.

And it is not reasonable to justify abusing a person or for that matter a dog because it has some health problem, whether TBI or being labeled bipolar by parents who often justify physical abuse and neglect of children with the excuse of "the child is bipolar so I have to either beat him, confine him, or sedate him."

My main complaint about NAMI is not that it's a support group, my main complaint is that it seems to be a group of people who use their child's purported illness to justify abuse, neglect, and poisoning. Thinking your child is bipolar, adhd, ocd, or some such, is no excuse for abuse. All parents find raising children frustrating. Again it's like dog ownership. I'm a great fan of the Dog Whisperer who I think would say that if you aren't willing to accept the fact that owning a dog is going to be frustrating sometimes, do not get a dog, and he might go on to say that locking a dog in a cage will not make it less violent and will be a violation of the law.

What the Dog Whisperer might explain is that there are no sick dogs, just sick owners. People aren't dogs and thus are responsible for their actions, still, Ceasar's message is important and this is the message, when a living creature misbehaves it is because you are sending it signals, often unintentionally. This woman feels that when her brother tells her he wants to leave the psych hospital, it means he's crazy, but isn't this a sign of wellness? This woman feels that her brother is dead and that this stranger has taken over his body. What sort of effect might that feeling have on this man who is in fact still her brother? Perhaps she should seek out a support group and therapy to deal with this human response that if not treated will cause her brother, her, and society more harm.

I'm assuming when Herb mentions that I need to be familiar with women's abuse groups that he means support groups for women who have been abused. I began volunteering for one years ago after I was raped. I no longer volunteer but I certainly do not think that women should be abused though of course I have seen women who were abused as children grow up to be abusive mothers. It must be terribly difficult to have a son or brother who has a brain injury, but this does not justify abusing the relative or writing him off. It sounds like the guy is expressing anger and rage over being rejected by his family and expressing them dramatically to get attention. Let's hope the attention he gets is loving helpful attention. Again, he's not a dog and to force him into calm, submissive behavior would be an abusive violation of his civil rights that would make him more violent.

And I have seen people who suffer traumatic brain injuries brutalized by their relatives because they do not seem like the same people they were before their injuries. Often the family members are just ignorant and don't mean harm, but it's sort of like the medieval habit of beating a child because he was hearing impaired because it was thought that the child was possessed by demons, unequivocally wrong regardless of the motivation.

I do doubt this woman's genuine concern for her brother though I do doubt his dangerousness as she refers to him as an animal. I would like to review the court papers regarding his involuntary civil commitment to see whether he was properly committed and I would certainly hope that this man can be placed in a closed head injury rehab center.

Posted by Sally at October 11, 2007 11:08 AM

Liz, I know I already responded to Herb and Helen's comments and don't know if you think my response appropriate but I'm compelled to post a link to Cesar Milan's "Cesar Against Abuse" website:

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/features/againstabuse

I often think of Cesar when I object to forced treatment of humans. If humans treated each other as well as Cesar treats dogs, we'd all be much better off. Here's a quote from his page:

"Never, ever correct an animal out of anger or frustration. When you try to correct your dog out of anger, you are usually more out of control than your dog is. You are fulfilling your own needs, not the animal’s. The dog will sense your unstable energy and often escalate the unwanted behavior."

Dear Sally,

The first point I would like to make is the reference I made to a “calm and submissive state” was directed toward you and not the brother in the narrative by way of your response which I agreed was your apparent “knee jerk rush-to-judgement” and apparent attack upon the writer.

Along those same lines I feel is the need in a calm state to address what was presented in the original posting. I am at a loss to follow your tangential thoughts where “NAMI” comes into this discussion and I am further at a loss with some other of your statements such as:

“Thinking your child is bipolar, adhd, ocd, or some such, is no excuse for abuse”. --- Sally

Our daughter is neither bipolar nor has she ever been abused and the brother in the story is a man and not a child.

“All parents find raising children frustrating.” --- Sally

The writer made no mention of familial abuse or lack of caring toward her brother. I don’t know if you’re a parent but I would opine it would be more appropriate for you to speak from your own personal experiences. My spouse and I did not find nurturing our daughter “frustrating” nor did a number of our friends. On the other hand it was certainly challenging and difficult for our daughter to have a mother suffering and incapacitated by a serious mood disorder through her formative years. I find it improper and out of line when I read similar statements such as yours where you state “all” and similar generalizations which simply are incorrect or untrue. Try using the first person singular, I. In my opinion your statements would hold more water and validity.

I am not an attorney or qualified to know the various state laws although based upon the statement below you seem to be speaking with knowledge and authority as to:

“It is certainly reasonable to lock up someone who is threatening to murder someone else. Threatening to murder someone is a crime.” --- Sally

Then these family members would have a right to bring criminal charges against the son/brother yet I read in the narrative no such event or inclination but on the other hand I did read many words of concern and caring such as:

“Treated” and not abused as you’re implying. “I want my brother to be able to choose what is best for himself…I would be an irresponsible sibling if I didn't fight to keep my brother hospitalized” and not jailed. “My mother who has been the one supporting him all his life…together as a family are fighting to keep him in treatment…What remains is hope that he may one day return.”

From my personal experiences as a very, very long time support person, care giver and mental health advocate for my spouse as well as others and as a former DBSA facilitator and Guardian Advocate I can also understand and empathize with the frustrations and sometimes anger, as we support persons are also human, at trying to reason at a moment in time with an individual out of control, incapable of comprehending or understanding the gravity of life threatening situations or actions. I am also personally aware of some patients and their families that struggle against the health insurance industry forcing patients out of treatment, care and hospitalization before achieving a reasonable degree of wellness. There were times when hospitalization for my spouse was the safer and better option as I was unable to insure her safety and maintain her wellness. Much as I was not happy to do so, hospitalization was in her best interests. I wouldn’t consider my actions as “abusing” either.

I am in agreement with you only in that I believe the sister’s phrase “caging the animal” was inappropriate and a momentary lapse of her calm and control. I still believe from her writings she is conveying a sincere caring and concern for her brother and no where in her writings did she express anything about either she or her mother “abusing” the brother/son or “writing him off” as you stated.

“I do doubt this woman's genuine concern for her brother though I do doubt his dangerousness as she refers to him as an animal.” --- Sally

I think your button(s) may have been pushed by this particular posting and what appears to me based upon your writings is an inability on your part to maintain a reasonable calm state and even keel. “Knee jerk rush-to-judgement” may have been precipitated by other of your own personal issues and therefore your assessment and reasoning differed greatly from my thoughts. Then again I bring to the table as did this man’s sister a different viewpoint, that of support persons and care givers. I don’t recall you having shared anywhere that you’ve been a support person and care giver to a loved one suffering from serious mood disorders or how your loved ones have supported you in time of need.

Just today I read of several shootings at a high school. Students forewarned the principal about the perpetrator. The Asian gentleman from Virginia Tech who also murdered several fellow students was another instance where a warning(s) was presented and also ignored. In this particular narrative you’ve learned of a prior history of illness, incarcerations and threats. In my home state a revered psychiatrist both by patients and peers was murdered by his patient.

I am against abrogating the lawful rights of any individual or forced treatment with one exception and I would also hope you or anyone never experiences living under the threat of physical or mental harm or being murdered.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Sally wrote: "My main complaint about NAMI is not that it's a support group, my main complaint is that it seems to be a group of people who use their child's purported illness to justify abuse, neglect, and poisoning." Wow --I'm truly offended. While I am not currently an active NAMI member, I did take their Family-to-Family course when my daughter was first diagnosed. The parents whom I got to know during the 12 week class were highly intelligent, educated, caring and courageous people who, like me, were trying to learn everything we could about bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and other brain disorders. We shared our stories and they were some of the most gut-wrenching I'd ever heard at that point. These were ordinary, loving parents who were suffering and scared because their loved ones were suffering and scared. I never heard any inkling of abuse, excuses, neglect,
defensiveness. We were all in it together and we had such empathy and respect for each other's unique situation and perspective. It was the one place where I felt safe, supported and understood. The facilitators/teachers were a husband and wife who had lost a child to suicide. They had no agenda except to provide us with as much information as possible and to encourage us to speak honestly and ask questions. I still am in touch with 2 sets of parents whom I met during the class.

This is only my experience; others may have had a different one with NAMI and the services they provide. Sally, you seem to be generalizing again and are in "attack" mode quite often. Of course, there are dysfunctional, abusive families, with and w/o mental illness at the center. If you need an enemy to attack, lash out at big pharma, self-serving psychiatrists, self-righteous experts,our government for underfunding mental health programs and services, etc. Most parents I know who have lived this nightmare with their kids are some of the most compassionate, brave and persevering advocates I have ever met.

Herb, I find your characterization of the relatives of people labeled mentally ill as the true victims deeply offensive. If your wife had cancer, it would be heartbreaking for you, but nothing compared with her experience. You think she has a mood disorder and thus you and your daughter apparently blame her for your problems. Look to the Dog Whisperer for advice and work on changing your behavior and taking responsibility for your actions instead of blaming and punishing the person you believe is physically ill.

Perhaps you don't know what a traumatic brain injury is. It certainly sounds like the letter writer's brother has been making bizarre verbalizations for years, as many people with physical trauma to their brains do, and yet has never hurt anyone. His family is in need of education about his verbalizations and he would probably benefit from some speech and cognitive therapy. Treating this guy with psychotropic drugs and confinement is cruel and ineffective.

Helen, In spite of all wishes to the contrary, all research indicates that the strongest component in a child developing behavior that gets labeled as mental illness is the child's environment. In spite of wishes and efforts to the contrary, there's no indication children are "born crazy." Groups like NAMI have grasped the biological model, specious though it is, and a lot of harm has resulted. When a child commits suicide, it's not because he wasn't taking anti depressants, it's because of a real problem somewhere. Parents of children with mental illness need to be evaluated and treated so they can change their behavior. Again, like Herb's characterization himself as the victim of someone else's behavior, it's troubling how you mention that its the parents and relatives of the "sick" person that need support. Abusers usually don't show up in mental hospitals, that's where the "sick" kids end up.

True there are lots of other problems in the mental health industry, the school system, and such, but until groups like NAMI accept responsibility for their relatives and also for their own reactions to their relatives, we're going to see a lot more abuse.

Dear Helen,

Apropos to our discussions on this topic this Sunday, in the early morning, I viewed a show on CNN. The show was entitled "CNN: Special Investigations Unit" on the "Criminally Insane" and was hosted by Soledad O'Brien.

Aside from the tragedies which were truly horrific what also caught my attention was the extent to which the law goes toward protecting the rights of many of these individuals to refuse hospitalization and/or treatment of any kind. One of the saddest vignettes in the presentation was that of a mother and father who made every effort possible to have their son treated and despite patient chart notes of a number of physicians as to the potential dangers and the individual should be on medications, the son refused medications and could not be hospitalized against his will.

The young man was about 23 years of age when he butchered his youthful mother with an ax and it was the father who found his spouse in the family bathtub. One could just sit and cry as the father holds no animosity toward his son as he relates in the video interview. As he stated both he and his wife knew their son was seriously ill and not taking his medications and trying their best in their son’s interest. The dad was somewhat angry at the groups that feed their son with information about not needing medications or hospitalization and all the ills of the mental health system and all the usual and canned rhetoric etc, etc. The dad was also upset despite professional evaluations nothing could be done to help and/or prevent their son’s irrational act. As told by the father, his son related, “The pope instructed him”.

The son was incarcerated and found to be criminally insane. When they interviewed one of the psychiatric survivor advocacy group spokesperson’s her explanation was simply and I’ll paraphrase, “I was doing my job”.

Helen, most all of that which you stated I personally can relate to, understand and empathize with you and other family members and loved ones who care give and lend support devotedly. I am also familiar with the efforts DBSA and other support groups such as NAMI to also educate and lend support to the patient as well as the care givers. As a former DBSA facilitator for a number of years one the few rules read before each meeting to the participants was a reminder to speak from the first person singular, I and to avoid using the word “you” so as to share one’s own personal experiences and not to give advice or to tell anyone what to do in order to avoid confrontations.

While I can also agree with most all that you presented I would take one exception to a similar and potentially inflammatory sentence.

“If you need an enemy to attack, lash out at big pharma, self-serving psychiatrists, self-righteous experts,our government for underfunding mental health programs and services, etc.” --- Helen

Rather than words such as “enemy, attack or self-righteous” which can easily incite others I would much prefer more positive words such as educate, advocate, inform, share, encourage, empower, campaign, etc, etc. My spouse and I over four decades have had our share of physicians but I’d rather state, “There are doctors, good doctors and better doctors.” The answer being; education, becoming informed in order to seek out at the minimum, the “good doctors” in order to overcome and hopefully achieve wellness. In my opinion nothing is perfect whether it be the pharmaceutical industry, physicians, the mental health system, the health insurance industry etc. It is an opportunity and incumbent upon those of us who are able to strive for the ideal. Although I am realist and know in my life time it won’t happen but that doesn’t preclude me from my efforts to try to improve the shortcomings I am aware of.

I was once told by a psychologist that being a care giver is twice as difficult. One, we don’t have the illness but deal with it and two, the patient has no choice as to having the illness and dealing with it and we do.

I wish you and yours wellness as I do the same for all those challenged by these horrific illnesses and their care givers.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Herb, I think you are a very wise man and I appreciate your challenge to avoid "you" statements and inflammatory/accusatory language. Whether it's having a disagreement with your spouse or daughter, debating an issue with friends or posting comments on a website or blog, the principles of effective communication per your comments---"to speak from the first person singular, I and to avoid using the word “you” so as to share one’s own personal experiences and not to give advice or to tell anyone what to do in order to avoid confrontations" are essential to civil discourse in all aspects of our lives. Doing so would hopefully allow minds to be open to another person's view and could ultimately lead to positive change in our personal or global world. Your posts are exemplary in that way. We can agree to disagree w/o being judgmental or attacking. Thank you for making me more aware of the power of my choice of words. Have you ever considered being a UN diplomat/negotiator?! Fondly, Helen

TV shows like that "CNN: Special Investigations Unit" program are not educational or news shows, but rather entertainment shows (for those who are entertained by things like that). The criminals featured on shows like that are not at all representative of most of the people who are subject to forced treatment. The fact that it's acceptable to regularly broadcast something like that, whipping up bigotry against all people who have been labelled by psychiatry, shows just how persecuted we are by the larger society.

Can you imagine a TV show of that nature regularly featuring heinous crimes committed by people of one ethnic or racial group, or of one religious group, or of a particular sexual preference, or even of a particular economic class? Almost any large group of people is going to have some very bad individuals in it. To broadcast a show featuring the actions of those bad apples and tarring an entire group based on the crimes of those few is at best irresponsible and at worst a promotion of hysteria, scapegoating, and bigotry. To cite the anecdotes in one of those lurid entertainment-oriented shows as a reason why those of us who have been abused by psychiatry and psychiatric labelling should be subject to more forced treatment is simply despicable.

Herb, if a psychologist told you it was twice as hard to be a caregiver, couldn't you at least contemplate the idea that it's the caregiver, not the cared for that is the sick one? People don't just lose their minds for no reason. Environment causes illness, environment heals.

Dear Kent,

I would be curious to know if you actually viewed the program I cited. The reason I ask is that it appears to me that you had not by your response. In particular were several of the vignettes in which the families were discussing their challenges with a member having a serious mood disorder involving violence or the potential for violence and the inability of the family to obtain needed medical assistance due to lack of available facilities and/or health care services and the legal ramifications of protecting the rights of the patient.

So while you’re discussing criminals, these stories discussed patients and their family trials and tribulations. In one or two instances the patient became a criminal. I previously mentioned one of the stories. Another covered a family discussing the son/brother while all were sitting on the steps in front of their home. The family was truly fearful of their lives owing to the volatile and explosive nature of the brother. When the young man discussed his feelings he acknowledged his explosive and violent temper justifying his reasons for that temper and felt no need for any kind of therapy.

I did not view or come away from that program with any of the stereo types, labeling and thoughts you have presented. On the other hand, as a very long time care giver, I personally was moved and thankful I am not confronted with those similar type issues. I personally am thankful as I know if I look around hard enough there are others with more challenging and difficult issues to deal with and things for me and my spouse could be a lot worse.

In my opinion the viewing and listening to the experiences and sharing of these several families was anything but anecdotal or “lurid entertainment” for me. It was a history. It was extremely serious, life threatening and contained deadly issues.

Dear Sally,

“Herb, if a psychologist told you it was twice as hard to be a caregiver, couldn't you at least contemplate the idea that it's the caregiver, not the cared for that is the sick one? People don't just lose their minds for no reason. Environment causes illness, environment heals.” --- Sally

There are many thoughts, ideas, issues etc over these more than four decades which I think about, research, investigate, discuss and/or collaborate with mental health professionals, fellow support people, patients and loving caring family members.

I wonder if by your statement you are attempting to intimate something about me or possibly your own personal experiences.

Whether you are or are not I’ll share with you that my spouse’s MDD has been reviewed, analyzed and discussed numerous times and in her case history there is no evidence of parental issues relating to child rearing and/or nurturing, no situational and/or environmental issues that can be attributed to causing her illness and throughout her life there has not been any physical or mental abuse etc, etc, etc but there is a paternal familial history of Depression.

I don’t know about people losing their minds. I do know about my spouse and her mood disorder and that of others that have shared with me over the years and quite frankly these individuals have been seriously challenged by their mood disorders and in my opinion I would not use a term such as “lose their minds”. Many of the individuals who sat across from me at support group meetings impressed me with their intelligence, reasoning, educational, professional and career accomplishments up and until the point their illnesses overwhelmed them.

Maybe you are more familiar with those who you refer to as “lose their minds” and you can share with me.

Do I believe in a genetic predisposition to serious mood disorders? Yes, I do.

Do I believe in the theories put forth about neuro-biochemical changes to the brain caused or triggered by stressors such as situational and/or environmental issues? Yes, I do once again.

In my spouse’s case history we’ve utilized various holistic approaches such as herbs, supplements, dietary changes, acupuncture, biofeedback etc, etc. She’s participated in numerous versions and disciplines of talk therapy and has utilized numerous medications and combinations of medications and least I not forget she’s also tried withdrawal and abstinence from all therapies basically without any significant long-term remission.

While we have found after some 37 years a treatment regimen that has been effective and has controlled, stabilized and yielded long-term remission for my wife over these past 7 or so years I am also reminded by her psychiatrist that manages her therapy that another of his patients was responding to the same treatment but it could only go so far. The treatment could not overcome the physical abuse and battering the woman was sustaining daily from her husband.

So if you are looking for the direct answer to your question I’ll answer you that anyone is potentially subject to mood disorders.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Herb, my characterization of that TV show as lurid was based entirely on your own descriptions of it, which included a statement about a young man who "butchered his youthful mother with an ax" - that is indeed quite lurid. I wonder what was your purpose in describing that? It seems to have been just to have an excuse to slam the psychiatric survivors group people, whom you seem to blame for the young man's murderous actions because they spoke out against medications and the mental health system. People can have honest disagreements about whether or not drugging or some other kind of psychiatric treatment might have prevented a particular person from committing a violent crime, Herb, but there is nothing at all honest about blaming someone who expresses an opinion either pro-drug or con for a violent crime that was committed by someone else.

I don't believe people should live in the same house with a relative who they fear might kill them, and if that relative does something criminal they should be prosecuted for it. But forcing incarcaration or "treatment" on someone for what you think they might do is something else altogether. Not only is it hard to predict who will be violent and who won't - (I think the most accurate predictors are age, gender, past history of violence, and drug or alcohol use, not psychiatric diagnosis) - it's also not certain that treatment will actually make a person less prone to violence rather than more. There's actually reason to believe that some psychiatric drugs, particularly SSRIs, often cause violent behavior. Here are some links to sites providing more information on this:

http://depression.about.com/od/prozac/SSRIs_and_Violence.htm

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php

http://www.smart-kit.com/s534/virginia-tech-massacre-crimes-of-violence-drugs-and-ssri-anti-depressants/

Many violent crimes have been committed by people taking medications of this type. Would it be fair to blame advocates of SSRI drug use for those crimes? In this case, I think the son who murdered his mother is to blame for his crime, not the people from the psychiatric survivors group who dared to express an unpopular opinion.

You say the law goes too far in protecting the rights of "many of these individuals" to refuse treatment. If by "these individuals" you mean people who are obviously dangerous, then I find that difficult to believe, since like many other readers of this blog I know it is often very easy to force treatment on people who aren't at all dangerous. If there is not enough space in mental institutions to hold all the people who are obviously just ticking time bombs waiting to explode, then maybe you should work to get all the non-dangerous people released so that there will be more room for the people who you know are going to commit a violent crime.

You know, forcing incarcaration or any other kind of "treatment" on someone who hasn't actually done anything violent is a form of violence in itself. And whether the consequences are immediate or long-term, violence seems to always breed more violence.

Dear Kent,

While I do appreciate having a dialog and trying to understand the individual and their perspective it is obvious that we come to these issues from considerably different vantage points. In my case that of a long time support person and care giver as you already may have read.

I try to be as factual and precise as possible while making an effort most times to leave my emotions outside these exchanges so as not to cloud the information.

I am put off when someone for whatever reason has a need to distort or misquote my words or to make attributions of me without even knowing me which takes place quite often in forums such as these.

“You say the law goes too far in protecting the rights of "many of these individuals" to refuse treatment.” --- Kent

You made that statement, not I.

You read my posting and you assess the entire program to be “lurid” based upon my 6 words, “butchered his youthful mother with an ax”. The 6 words were factual and to the point as it pertained to that particular event and it struck me as such. Maybe next time I’ll state, “He kissed his Mom good-bye” and then you can “wonder what was your purpose in describing that?” too. I’ll also state just in case you might be wondering or misinterpret where this is going; I have not ever had nor do I have thoughts of murdering anyone least of all my parents and therefore the reason I am so taken aback by the murder of a loving, devoted, caring and supportive parent. It shocks me to the core. Incidentally, the son, to the best of my recollection, had refused all medications so I’ll presume that antidepressants were not at issue. I’ll also leave it to the numerous websites, forums and books which devote themselves to laying blame. It is not a part of my nature, advocacy and/or objectives. If I do have a need to lay any blame anywhere it is usually with me.

“It seems to have been just to have an excuse to slam the psychiatric survivors group people, whom you seem to blame for the young man's murderous actions because they spoke out against medications and the mental health system.” --- Kent

“Many violent crimes have been committed by people taking medications of this type. Would it be fair to blame advocates of SSRI drug use for those crimes? In this case, I think the son who murdered his mother is to blame for his crime, not the people from the psychiatric survivors group who dared to express an unpopular opinion.” --- Kent

Once again, these are your statements and I believe misinterpretations, not mine. I did not slam anyone. I did not nor do I spend my time laying blame. It is not productive and a wasteful effort, in my opinion, so I’ll leave that for those who care to lay blame and the attorneys who get paid for that effort. And if I chose to slam anyone, I can assure you that you would have no doubt about it.

I do spend my energies reasonably educating myself to overcome obstacles and challenges in our way in order to better advocate for my spouse’s wellness and for others that have asked for my assistance. I also, in my own way, lobby and campaign for improvements as well as funding for the mental health care system amongst other activities. I also support the work of Judge Ginger Lerner-Wren in Broward County who was a party to the establishment of the first mental health court in this country in order to try to decriminalize some of the acts of those seeking mental wellness.

I don’t know your definition of “many” when you’re speaking about violet crimes. I do know statistically studies have been made that indicate those who suffer mood disorders perpetrate fewer crimes than the general population and in all likelihood far less violent crimes. I wasn’t aware there is data on those committing violent crimes and taking antidepressants. Then again, before the advent of any psychotropic medications there were violent crimes.

Lastly, while walking on the center white line down a main thoroughfare completely naked and speaking incoherently is not a violent crime, it is a crime. It is a crime at least in my neck of the woods as told to me by a friend who did commit the crime and later told me after his treatment regimen kicked in that he “must’ve been out of his head...how the heck could he do that…that was the worst ever”. Since that time he’s been compliant with his therapy and in his case his illness has been controlled, stabilized and in remission and that he had not previously used any recreational drugs.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Okay, guys, I think this is getting a little heated, no? Let's take a break from this one and move on. I feel like we're getting a little angry with each other, or irritable, or something, and that's not what I want us to do. I want this to be a safe and supportive space. So I'm closing comments on this post.